Podcast: How to talk to your teen about mental health (without being cringey)

Lauren Mudrock
00:00 – 00:19
Hey everyone, it’s Lauren from Sonare. I am here with two of our adolescent therapists, Mike and Adam, and we are going to be talking to you today about how to talk to your teen about mental health without making it cringey. So, I’d like to welcome our guests. Would you guys be so kind as to introduce yourselves and tell us a little bit about yourselves?

Adam VanLuvanee
00:19 – 01:20
Go forward, Adam. Right. Like Lauren said, my name’s Adam. Um, Adam Van Leuvenie. Uh, my background is in clinical mental health. I have a master’s degree. Uh, I have an NCC. I’m just about to get my license too. I’m right there. All of my stuff is submitted and I’m just waiting in that prolonged period of time while the board reviews it. So, um, yeah, on my way to that. Um, I guess a little bit about me. I um I have a really vast net of interests that I I do, and I’m my group makes fun of me a lot because I always have another story about something weird and random that has been a part of my life. Um, I’m a second-degree black belt with national titles. Um, yeah. I haven’t practiced in probably over 10 years now. So they started me when I was little because I needed discipline. But, um, you know, classic. But I kind of took to it and I got really good at it and I started competing. And by the time I was 12, I had a black belt and I was teaching the adults. So, um,

Adam VanLuvanee
01:20 – 01:23
One of those little things in my back pocket that comes up every now and then, so

Lauren Mudrock
01:24 – 01:38
Okay, I need to ask because I have a similar story with gymnastics. I was a national-level gymnast, and that was 20 years ago, and I can still, like, I can still do things. So, do you just, like, whip out these karate moves?

Adam VanLuvanee
01:38 – 02:01
Yeah, totally. And it’s like I don’t think about it a lot. Like, I’m really athletic. I work out a lot. I do a lot of yoga and I’m flexible, so I’ve maintained the ability. And every now and then it like comes up, and someone’s like, “You can’t do that.” And then I can still do like some really crazy kicks or stuff like that, and I’ll just kind of like break it out in like jeans or something and they’re like, “What?” It just, it doesn’t make sense when you see me, but then I do it and it’s even more confusing, I guess. So

SPEAKER_03
02:02 – 02:05
You topped that.

Mike Smolenski
02:06 – 02:44
I can’t, but I’ll try. Uh, so I’m uh Mike Smolensky. I’m a LPC, licensed professional counselor. I’ve been in the field for, I think this is my 25th year. Um, which is why you see the salt and pepper is in well effect here. Um, yeah, I mean I have a pretty extensive background. I’ve kind of done everything. I did therapy what I like to say ass backwards, which means I started at like the highest level of care, um, because my internship was in um an inpatient facility and kind of like worked backwards uh from there. So, I’ve done that.

Lauren Mudrock
02:45 – 02:49
Within a patient facility, what is that for anybody who’s just tuning in for the first time?

Mike Smolenski
02:50 – 04:20
So most people would call it like going to the hospital, right? Uh, we just call it inpatient as like the therapy name for it. But that’s where it’s like it’s like sleep away camp, but probably not the sleep away camp that you wanted to go to. Um, it’s but it’s but it’s an important level of care because obviously, we get to points where we can’t keep ourselves safe or keep others safe for instance. And that’s exactly what the hospital’s for. I wouldn’t necessarily say you’re doing a lot of what I would call like therapy. It’s more about just like stabilization, um, and just making sure that you’re safe for yourself and for others. So, yeah. And that was my first foray. So I I noticed early on I was like, either one of two things is going to happen. This is going to freak me out, and I’m going to quit psychology altogether, or I’m going to be interested. And thankfully for me, it was the latter, and I haven’t looked back ever since. Um, and then something interesting for me, which I think most people know if they know me well enough, is I’m actually a musician. I’ve been playing guitar, God, for I I don’t know. I don’t want to count because it’s depressing. Uh, I’ve been in and out of bands, um, my whole life. Uh, you know, had to like retire once my daughter was born, but I’m currently in an original band that is like touring. And I’m not going to reveal the name because I like to keep church and state separate, as it were. So cryptic. But if you could But if you could find me, it’s kind of cool. Like

Mike Smolenski
04:20 – 04:31
I am on Apple iTunes, which is fun. Uh, and YouTube, uh, for for music. So that’s like a weird fun fact that I sometimes can’t believe myself. So

Lauren Mudrock
04:32 – 04:40
Okay, so where is the coolest place that you guys have gotten to tour with music?

Mike Smolenski
04:41 – 04:54
We went to Michigan this past July. Uh, yeah, there was this really uh, so it’s it’s a metal band, because I’m a metalhead. Uh, so uh, don’t judge me, please. Uh,

Lauren Mudrock
04:53 – 04:59
I just feel like any musician automatically really likes metal. Like they they can hear it in a different way than

Mike Smolenski
05:01 – 05:47
Totally agree. You nailed me right there with that. That’s so true. So yeah, so we did this There’s this like festival. If you ever heard of like Oz Fest, for instance, uh it’s called Upheaval was the name of the like two-day festival. And we got to play, you know, that particular festival, which was awesome because one of the bands that I really like actually played that show. And I got to like meet them and the whole time I was there I was waiting to get like beat up by a security guard. So it’s like it was really like trippy to be like in catering with like a band that’s like a national like band that I like. And to be there like as a peer and not a fan was really, really weird.

Lauren Mudrock
05:47 – 05:53
That is crazy. I can’t even imagine what that would like, how that would feel and you’re like, I’m just some guy.

Mike Smolenski
05:54 – 06:02
I tried really hard not to fanboy. I think I pulled it off, but it was tricky. It was really tricky, so.

Lauren Mudrock
06:02 – 06:07
That’s so cool. Okay, you guys are both very interesting people. This is so cool.

Mike Smolenski
06:07 – 06:09
First test, check. Yeah.

Lauren Mudrock
06:09 – 06:23
Yeah, you passed. Now we’ve got, we’ve got so many more questions. So, like I said, we are diving into the topic of how, how do you talk to your team about mental health? It is, it is a new, weird conversation to have because I think it’s

Lauren Mudrock
06:23 – 06:31
I don’t think anybody’s parents up until this generation has ever even like, it’s just awkward. It’s so off-limits.

Lauren Mudrock
06:31 – 06:51
So, like, parents right now are really like, you guys are, I applaud you guys, because you guys are taking one for the team, figuring this out, letting it be awkward. Um, so hopefully what we give you guys today will, I mean, not even hopefully, I know it will. Uh, you guys have great insights, 25+ years combined, so like that’s really good stuff.

Lauren Mudrock
06:53 – 06:56
One of my favorite plushies. It’s great!

Mike Smolenski
06:56 – 07:03
I loved it. Adam is my plus one, you know what I mean? Like, this is… I fully signed up for this. Yeah.

Lauren Mudrock
07:04 – 07:18
Okay, so let’s dive in. When it comes to talking about mental health, what would you guys say in your personal experience has been the number one mistake you’ve seen parents make when they’re trying to talk to their teens about mental health?

Mike Smolenski
07:18 – 07:50
Where do I start? Uh, so I’ll just boil this down to say that like the, to me it’s about like making assumptions ahead of time, right? So I have this thing where I say, like when you ask someone what’s wrong, that’s like the, that question fails usually 99.9% of the time because when you do that you’re making an assumption, right? And if the person’s not ready to talk,

Mike Smolenski
07:50 – 08:15
It just immediately activates their defense mechanisms, right? And again, you don’t even have to have like what we would call like a mental health issue or struggle with anything to identify that feeling when someone asks you that, right? Especially if there is nothing wrong. You’re just kind of like, “Why are you asking me this question? Like I was just sitting on the couch watching TV. Like, what is wrong?” Right? And then like

Lauren Mudrock
08:14 – 08:17
And then they’re like, “See? You’re upset.”

Lauren Mudrock
08:17 – 08:20
Wait, no, I’m just asking, like why…

Mike Smolenski
08:19 – 08:27
And then it just like uh, it just falls apart from there. So, yeah, I would probably say that to me is like one of the number one mistakes that I’ve seen.

Lauren Mudrock
08:28 – 08:34
So what would you do? What would you recommend doing instead for that? Like, how can they turn that around?

Mike Smolenski
08:35 – 09:20
I say use what’s available to you, right? So again, like let’s say your kid comes home and they immediately go to their room for 4 hours straight, right? Just observe that. Start there. Like, hey, I noticed you came home and you went to your room for 4 hours, right? Now, again, I’m not saying that if the person’s not ready to talk, they’re going to give you a whatever, you know, everything’s fine or they’re really like, they still might get defensive, right? So you’re not, you know, it’s about controlling the controllables, right? You can’t control the response, you can just control how you respond and what you actually say and do, right? So that’s you make that observation and then hopefully that, you know, it’s really hard to pretend that that didn’t happen if you’re that kid, right?

Mike Smolenski
09:20 – 09:24
Like, yeah, you did go to your room for four hours. Like you’re just stating a fact that…

Adam VanLuvanee
09:30 – 10:17
Honestly, kind of playing off of that, what I was thinking is that I think a lot of parents will try and force a conversation, like from that “what’s wrong?” kind of thing. Like you get that “what do you mean? Nothing’s wrong,” and then it’s like, well, obviously something’s wrong. And it starts to kind of like play into everybody working each other up to the point that something now is wrong, but nothing really was wrong to start out with, you know? So, like, if your kid isn’t ready to talk, they’re not going to talk to you, especially as a parent, you know. They might talk to somebody else, whether it’s somebody like me or a school counselor, or even just a friend, you know. I think it’s really valuable to assess resources rather than try and think that you, as the mom or the dad or the guardian or whatever, is the sole person that has to extract this information, because if it’s not coming from them when they want it to, it’s not going to happen, you know. I love what um, so

Mike Smolenski
10:17 – 11:06
Stepping back from that, I said to several parents that sometimes you’re not their person. And I I’m a parent myself, and I know that’s like soul-crushing to accept that. But, you know, it’s about to me when you’re looking at support or a support system, the word system is used on purpose, right? Because it’s not like, oh, it’s this one person. Right? It’s a system. Right? And the more you have it, like the more or the bigger that is, the better for really anyone. Again, this doesn’t have to be confined to the mental health space. This is life. Right? It’s good to have a support system. And again, I would love to lie to every parent and say like, you’re going to be the person for them, but that that doesn’t always happen. And that’s we have to be okay with that, you know? We we just we just do, and that’s hard, you know.

Lauren Mudrock
11:06 – 11:33
It is hard and it takes a village, like you’re saying, it takes a village. And I feel like if I can’t speak to this from a parent’s perspective, but I would like to think that there’s a little bit of relief in there that the pressure doesn’t have to be all on you. You don’t have to solve all of these problems and, I mean, of course you’re going to and like you’re going to be there as much as you possibly can, but you can get, like, there’s support there for you too. It takes a village all around.

Adam VanLuvanee
11:34 – 12:09
I mean, really, like a parent’s fear is kind of the thing that comes in in these situations where they’re asking what’s wrong because they’re nervous that something is wrong, you know? And especially if they feel like they’re not getting an answer, it’s not just about the teenager anymore. It’s the parent controlling their own nervous system and their body as it starts to spike out of like, “Oh my god, there’s something wrong with my kid,” you know? So, just as much as it’s about trying to help the teenagers, I always encourage parents on the other end, too, to like get support for themselves because it’s just as much their own reaction and how they manage their own feelings as much as it is about their kids, you know. Absolutely. Good point.

Lauren Mudrock
12:10 – 12:47
Okay, so why so like, okay, there’s going to be that bit of resistance almost no matter what. Um, and why would you guys say in your observations and your work, why do teens seem to hate conversations um with their parents so much? Like these serious conversations with them. Um, and is there a way that they can make it more natural? So like, like Mike you said, um just observing it like, “Hey, I noticed this.” Just get curious about it, but like how do they work the actual conversation into that naturally?

Mike Smolenski
12:47 – 14:04
That’s a great question. Um, that’s so I feel like we could make a whole podcast just for that question. So, I’ll try to distill it down again to like main takeaways. Um, I think the thing is is like I always say that these conversations or any conversations like this is a function of the relationship that you have with that person, right? So again, if you’re kind of going into this where that relationship is not established or there’s conversations, you’re already up against it, right? So again, like you can’t expect to go in and you have to be realistic and expect like, oh, okay, we we’ve done this before and we’re just going to this is going to be super like supernatural and everything is going to go really well, right? That takes time, right? So there’s that part of it. But I also think, you know, you have to be yourself, right? So again, you don’t have to use 25-cent words. Um, as a therapist, I try really hard not to sound smart when I don’t need to. It’s just like talk like a human being, right? Because I think that’s what people respond to. They respond to authenticity, right? And a person being genuine. So again, like kids are really, really good at, you know, I don’t know if I’m allowed to curse on these things, but um

Mike Smolenski
14:04 – 15:12
Yeah. Yeah, so but they’re really good at spotting like fake, right? And they and they do it quickly. Um, it doesn’t don’t be fooled that because they’re young, they can’t do that. They’ll see it right away. So again, if you come into these conversations and you start speaking like you just read a textbook or you just googled something real quick, I would rather you just, I don’t know, do anything other than talk to your kid at that moment, right? Like, and Adam said this earlier, which I think is incredibly important, you have to be ready yourself. Right? And if you’re not ready or equipped or whatever, that is totally totally okay. I tell parents all the time, I use a lot of humor and sarcasm, like you’re probably not a great parent if you have a kid and you start planning for them being depressed or anxious in the future. You know, you want your kid to be healthy and all, you know, mentally, physically, on and on we go, right? So, it’s okay if you didn’t like go to grad school for psychology so that you could help your kid on that massive what if if they struggle, right? It’s okay. Like just be human.

Lauren Mudrock
15:12 – 15:54
I love that. And by the time that this comes out, we will have a blog post out that is about like dropping the guilt around that because parents, you really are doing your best. And yeah, nobody sets out with this intention and nobody um I read in a book, we’re reading Viral Justice right now and she mentioned that nobody like nobody sets out with the intention to fail. Like nobody wants to fail. And and that applies to you as parents, that applies to your teams. Like everybody is is doing their absolute best and it’s just hard sometimes and there’s so many there’s it’s such a it’s like a diamond, it’s like a so many facets of factors that

Lauren Mudrock
15:55 – 16:08
That can play into all this. And um, so I’m going to go on a bit of a tangent with that: how can parents kind of depersonalize these situations and like calm their own nervous systems when they’re when they’re bringing this up and it might get a little bit shaky.

Adam VanLuvanee
16:08 – 17:11
Yeah, I really encourage parents to take space. Like honestly, I think that, you know, if you start really like getting scared that something is wrong and you’re reading the textbooks like Mike’s talking about and you’re trying to be intelligent about it and be the professional when realistically you’re not, you know, and that’s okay. Step back. Like take a moment for yourself, calm yourself down, focus on your own feelings, your body, your thoughts, all of those things that are getting it ramped up. Because if you’re feeling it, your kid is feeling it, especially if you’re directing it at them, you know? And if your kid isn’t feeling good already, that definitely isn’t going to help. So, you know, I think for parents to be able to really encourage themselves to have their own process alongside, you know, relationships of any kind are living, breathing entities that need their own what’s the word? Um, space. I don’t know, there’s a better word for that, but um, and a parent-child relationship is no different than that, you know? So, if the relationship is feeling suffocated, it needs to be stepped back from so it can breathe a little bit. Yeah. That’s a good point.

Lauren Mudrock
17:12 – 17:25
Yeah. I love that. Because yeah. Yeah, I I I was going to say pretty much exactly what you just said, so I’m not not going to. But I it resonates. Nice. Um

Lauren Mudrock
17:25 – 17:50
Yeah, so let’s say a parent then does finally get their teen to open up. But then they get to a point and like things are going great, things are going great, but then the teen like shuts down either abruptly or like they notice it start to fall off track. Like, what should they do in that moment? How do they kind of pick up and recover from that without letting everything just like completely fall off track?

Mike Smolenski
17:51 – 19:10
I have this phrase I like to use, where I say, “Sometimes you have to talk about the talking.” Okay? So, if we are, usually we go into conversations where we have something that we’re communicating with the other person, or vice versa, or both. And that it’s not going well. And both people could probably notice it, but they kind of keep going into that subject, right? And then it just gets worse and worse and worse. So sometimes you have to kind of like back out, zoom out, and then, like again what I said, talk about the talking, which is, “Hey, do you notice when we talk about this, where when this happens, like this is the result, or this is what it, like, you know, devolves into?” Right? And it’s noticing what that is. So it could be all sorts of things. It could be, what are our triggers? And what are our defense mechanisms? Right? That’s like part of communication. And if we don’t attend to those pieces of the communication, then our conversations are probably not going to go well. Right? Especially if we’re talking about something like a sensitive topic, like this type of stuff, like, you know, if my kid’s coming to me and, you know, I’m having this conversation and all of a sudden it just falls apart. Right? Maybe there’s something that they’re doing, we’re doing, or both. You know.

Adam VanLuvanee
19:11 – 19:54
Absolutely. I find it really valuable, like in the therapeutic space a lot of the time that, you know, even us will be trying to have a conversation with somebody and it’s just getting choppy and really weird. You can tell they’re uncomfortable and like you’re starting to sweat and you’re like, “Oh my god, what am I doing?” Every moment I hit one of those, I pull back and I’m like, “Is this weird right now?” And I kind of just go back into human and like into the moment of what’s happening, you know? Because once you try and just intellectualize the living hell out of it, you know, it’s just going to lose everything that it’s about. So you come back to the moment and the feelings and the experience of being with somebody rather than trying and fixing, you know? And that normally gets the ball rolling a bit more.

Lauren Mudrock
19:55 – 19:59
I love that. Okay, so when you say, like, “Is this weird?” do you actually say that out loud?

Adam VanLuvanee
20:01 – 20:21
I mean, Mike has seen me in a session before. Like, I don’t put on a voice. I don’t really change the way I go about things. Like, I kind of give them my raw personality for what it is. Um, and I think that helps with this population. Because once you sit there with your hands folded and you say, “We’re going to learn Tip today,” everybody goes offline, you know.

Mike Smolenski
20:23 – 22:12
I’m a big Adam knows me as well. He’s been a session with me as well. Like, we’re both kind of like the same, just different, if that makes sense. Um, but you have to you have to show up as a human. And I think like what Adam’s hitting on, which is huge, is as a parent, I think our defense mechanism is we have to be perfect, right? We have to get it right. Like we’re the adults. So, we’re supposed to know everything and get it right. I think it’s really hard for people, especially as parents, to admit that we don’t know everything or we’re struggling with something. I don’t know why. I mean, I know intellectually why, but I don’t know why we shy away from that. I think sometimes it’s okay to stop in the middle of a conversation and say, like, “Hey, like, you know, I don’t know what I’m doing here. I need you I need you to help me,” right? I want to learn from you, right? So again, as a parent, we’re used to being in like the the instructor or the teacher. And like Adam said, you can get into that trap as a therapist, too. But it’s like nobody knows that person. Nobody knows themselves better than themselves, right? So, if you come into it looking like I have to fix this, or I have to solve this, or I’m supposed to know everything, you’re kind of set yourself up for failure before you even start. So, I love what Adam said. I do the same thing. Um, I may or may not use colorful language, but um and if anyone knows me, self-deprecation is a huge part of what I do. So, if I’m screwing up, like I just call myself to the carpet every single time. You know, “Oh, man, I really messed that up, didn’t I? Or I probably shouldn’t have said that,” you know what I mean? Like, and we just talk about it. And it just lowers the defenses because it’s like, okay, cool. Like, he he’s human. And you’ve heard us say that already a bunch of times, and I’m assuming we’re going to probably return to that theme quite a bit.

Lauren Mudrock
22:13 – 24:18
Yeah, and I I love that. I think that should be a you know, it might as well be our tagline on our brand. Be human. That’s That’s the secret to life. Be human, be be messy, be be So, I can only speak to this from you know, the perspective of having been a teenager and and dealing with um my family dynamics and it was it was suffocating. It wasn’t fun. And I I went my whole life with never hearing a single apology from my parents ever. And like they were just They made so many decisions that hurt and that were not kind and not thought through and um and they rolled with them. They were like, “I’m in charge. I know how to do everything.” And they kept that facade up and it just really broke us open and to the point that I at at some point stopped talking to my family and I had to draw that hard line and it’s been really, really fascinating now to have lived on that side of things and to be here in 20 25, um after my dad passed, my mom had She kind of broke open as a person. Of course, that’s going to be a life-changing experience and um but she realized all these things and she kind of woke up and she started owning her mistakes and having honest conversations and apologizing. And it first it started off small, but like the first time she apologized, I was like, “Everybody in the world, like my mom just did this,” and like, “Oh my god, where was this my whole life? And this is amazing! This is what this feels like!” And like And now like it’s just been incrementally better and better, and now it’s just such a It’s almost a casual conversation of us being able to healthily break down like she’s like, I like She’s not all the way to the point where she’s like, “I did this to you,” but she’s acknowledging like, “Oh, we lived in kind of a hell hole,” and like it’s refreshing. And it’s really, really nice because, yeah, defenses have dropped entirely. I consider my mom one of my best friends these days and like not many people always get that. And um So if that’s a good success story that anybody needs to hear, like it’s it’s being human is your is your key to success. And I do the exact same thing as you guys. Like I’m so happy to call out

Lauren Mudrock
24:19 – 24:38
Like my mistakes and everything because there’s so much grace in that. There’s so much grace for everybody else. Like, oh, he’s like, so like you guys are the therapists, like they’re allowed to make mistakes. That means like I’m cool to make mistakes too. And this is just we’re all just kind of humans. Like, yeah. So that theme of being human is imperative. So say it all you want.

Mike Smolenski
24:39 – 25:06
Yeah, and and real quick, I just want to say what we’re describing in a lot of ways, and thank you for sharing that with your mom, is modeling. Mm-hm. And don’t underestimate the power of modeling, right? If you want your kid to open up, you have to show that you can open up too, right? Like, is this a safe space, right? So, if you can do that, I I can’t underestimate or, you know, overstate even how important that modeling is, especially as the adult.

Lauren Mudrock
25:11 – 25:27
And I’m sure it can feel like weird when you are in that state of like, I don’t know what I’m doing. To that, but I mean, like you said, call that out, let it be what it is and like help me through this. Like, we’re going to figure this out together. It’s going to be messy and that’s okay. And I’m just going to embrace it and roll with it.

Adam VanLuvanee
25:27 – 25:48
Yeah. Messy’s only scary when you’re not accustomed to really looking at it, you know? Like if you stand in the middle of a messy room and you just take a beat to like breathe it in, look at where everything is, you can kind of center and go, “Uh, okay. That’s supposed to be over there. This needs to go this way. I got to put that in the laundry.” Like, and you know, it gets cleaned up. But if you ignore it forever, I mean, it’s going to smell really bad.

Mike Smolenski
25:50 – 25:54
Hey, when you said “take it in,” I was like, “Are you sure you want to take it in? Oh my god!”

Lauren Mudrock
25:56 – 26:33
Okay, so say the conversation then gets to um, like they’re making progress together and they’re breaking through and like having real conversations and their teen is trusting them. And that’s a really beautiful thing. What happens when they get to something super heavy and like your teen is like, “I just don’t see the point in anything anymore?” Like how do they kind of set that panic aside from everything that we’ve been talking about? Um, and the worry for your kid, of course, but like how do they stay calm in that situation instead of panicking or lecturing?

Adam VanLuvanee
26:34 – 27:54
I mean, I think it’s tough because it’s such an individual case. You know, the first thing that comes to mind for me is trauma. And I mean, like as a therapist, you’re going to see trauma in everybody regardless of size and context. And so, it to a parent, you know, somebody who has trauma, but it’s managed, they’ve done their work, kind of thing, whatever. They probably know how to calm their body down. So they hear something and they know what it feels like for their body to get set off, and they can like kind of acknowledge it and maybe take a moment to like, “Ooh, okay. That set things off for a minute. Now, I can approach this conversation.” But for parents who have trauma and it isn’t managed, which there all of us have stuff that’s unmanaged at a level, you know, it’s normal. It’s hard in that moment to have something trigger a response and then be able to calmly approach a situation. So I think the biggest thing is for a parent to really have the awareness for themselves of where they fall on that spectrum and be able to recognize whether or not they’re capable of having that conversation in that moment. And the best thing might be to step away from it and to say like, “This is big. I want to give this the space that it deserves, and where I am right now, where you are right now, can’t do that well. So let’s come back to this in an hour or something like that,” you know. Um, giving things air does so much wonder.

Lauren Mudrock
27:55 – 28:15
That’s beautiful. And like calling you out too, like I am doing this because I respect you. I have so much respect for what you just said to me, and I want to take care of you and your heart in this. Um, so this is like being honest about those intentions of like, I’m not shutting this down because that’s too much for me. Like, I’m shutting this down because it’s too much for me, and I want to figure this out with you.

Mike Smolenski
28:18 – 30:04
I would also add that by saying, you know, go into these conversations with some level of preparedness, knowing that it might get heavy and it might get scary. And if you can, you know, because like Adam said, it’s an individual basis, so it depends on how you get from point A to point B. But if you have that time to prep, like look at your own stuff first, right? Like, what do I need to enter into this conversation so that I can be okay if it goes in this direction? Because if you’re not ready for that, you, you know, run the risk of shutting it down, and then the person’s kind of left like raw, you know what I mean? And there’s nowhere for that to go. Um, and I think if we’re talking about a safety issue, I think it’s important just to mention this as a disclaimer. Um, it’s important to make sure that there’s some sort of safety plan or that you know how to respond. And I’m going to simplify that process because again, like not everyone has like a really detailed safety plan. But if the person, if your kid can’t keep themselves safe, again, I’m going back to what we said about inpatient or hospital. It’s not ideal, but again, it’s the same thing. It’s like if you break your leg, right? Where are you going to go? You’re going to go to the emergency room, right? You can’t just be like, ah, I’ll be fine, I’ll just wake up and I’ll be, you know, I’ll be walking again. This is kind of that same kind of principle, right? If if that kid cannot keep themselves safe, just go to your your local crisis center or or a hospital, like emergency room, you know what I mean? You’re probably going to sit there for like 10 hours, which is going to suck. You know, but some things, you know, can’t wait until 3 hours later or 24 hours later. So it really depends, and that’s why I think it’s important that that Adam said like the individuality of each of these conversations is key.

Lauren Mudrock
30:04 – 30:08
Yeah. Absolutely. Adam, did you have something you wanted to say about that?

Adam VanLuvanee
30:08 – 30:53
I agree fully with Mike. Something popped in my head after I finished talking. I was like, a safety plan kind of thing. It seems like it might be more important to say that. But, on top of the crisis center ER, we have 988 available to us. I think it’s a great resource. So, if it isn’t like to the point where you as a parent—because no parent is really an expert in this stuff—if you’re like, “I know what we have to do,” that’s a good safe call to be able to say, “Okay, let’s call this number. Let’s talk to somebody.” That person is going to be trained in crisis management, and they might be able to help direct the next steps for you. Maybe you get to a point where that conversation makes everything a bit better for the night. And maybe they say, “Here’s some resources near you, and you should probably go to them now.” So,

Lauren Mudrock
30:53 – 31:08
Okay, so is there a difference because I’m a little bit unfamiliar with 988? I know our therapist Naomi talked about a warm line versus a crisis line. Is that the crisis line or is that the warm line?

Adam VanLuvanee
31:09 – 31:15
I actually don’t think I know what a warm line is, and I’m exposing myself fully on…

SPEAKER_03
31:13 – 31:15
I might have butchered that.

Adam VanLuvanee
31:15 – 31:18
That’s good modeling, Adam. Thank you.

Adam VanLuvanee
31:19 – 31:48
To my understanding, Crisis Line, but it’s not the same as like you’re calling an ambulance and they’re on their way right now kind of thing. 988 is people that are trained in crisis management. So if you really are having a really difficult moment and safety is questionable, they’re trained in helping to de-escalate that. And if de-escalation isn’t an option, they should be able to help get an ambulance to your house, give you resources that you can get to, help you get to people that are able to help you. So they have a wide variety of things that they can help you access in a really difficult moment.

Lauren Mudrock
31:49 – 31:53
I’m very, very thankful for things like that existing.

Lauren Mudrock
31:53 – 32:08
I do want to speak to um right now pretty much because if I don’t want to give the impression that um well, give me a second. I’m going to have them edit this bit.

Lauren Mudrock
32:10 – 33:14
So what I’m nowhere to draw the line of like, oh, this is this statement is something that is like a crisis and needs to be acted on now versus like, oh, we should probably just call 988 and um and get some resources versus like, you know, like how do they tell the difference in those signs? Because what what most people know right now is that you can go to therapy once a week, or you can check yourself into the hospital. They don’t know that there are services in between, and that’s what we offer. We offer those in-between services so you don’t have to necessarily end up in the hospital if that’s not fit for you at this time. But once a week therapy isn’t enough, and um and that’s just through group therapy multiple times a week with some really amazing people like you, too. And and people who relate to the things that your teen is going through, teens that are relating to what your teens are going through. And um so like, how do you know? Like how can they tell what statement is to act on? I know that that’s so nuanced and like it’s not black and white, but if there’s any like yeah.

Mike Smolenski
33:14 – 33:21
I’m assuming we’re both smiling because you’re asking the impossible question. You don’t know. I think like…

Mike Smolenski
33:21 – 34:15
That’s kind of the point, right? So, from a very basic level, right, what we’re taught, if you do any sort of like psychology, whatever, you’re taught to assess for a plan and intent, right? So, do I have a plan of like how I would do this? And how high is my intent? Do I really want to do it? Is it I just kind of think about it? So again, like suicidality is a continuum, right? It’s not just like it’s not black or white, like it’s going to happen, it’s not going to happen, right? So, again, I go back to what we said however many minutes ago, you don’t have to be the expert. And even if you’re a therapist, by the way, you’re still not the expert because you don’t know. It’s really just about what you like I mean, you know, sometimes this is going to not make your kid or whoever’s struggling comfortable, right? But to me it’s like we don’t take chances with safety.

Mike Smolenski
34:17 – 35:24
So, we have people like Adam said, whether it’s 988 or the emergency room, or whatever it is, that will assess those things. Again, that’s not a perfect process, but that’s exactly why these things exist. So that you don’t have to put that pressure on yourself to figure it out. And again, like it never hurts to be evaluated when someone is struggling, especially with their safety. It might piss off you, but I have this line. It’s very blunt, but I do like to say it when I need to, which is I’d rather you be mad at me than you be dead. And in every case that I’ve been in where I’ve had to send someone to the hospital, especially if they were not happy about it, which never happens, right, of course. I’ve had plenty of people be mad at me, curse me out, like whatever, and they’ll come back, you know, a week later, a couple of days later, or whatever, and they wind up thanking you. So again, I don’t care if people are angry with me. I have a joke that I say, if you’re not angry with me, then I’m not doing a good job as a therapist, as far as I’m concerned. So

Adam VanLuvanee
35:25 – 35:32
Yeah, well said. Absolutely. I don’t know if I really have much to add there. I think you hit a lot of nails on the head there. I tried, you know what I mean?

Lauren Mudrock
35:33 – 35:51
Yeah. Yeah. That was um, and I I’ve seen two of our own um client stories and testimonials. There are a lot of people who were like, “I was so angry that day,” and like, “I’m so thankful for it.” So it’s it is absolutely worth it to be better safe than sorry and

Mike Smolenski
35:52 – 36:02
And you can hold space for that anger too. Like, it’s okay. It’s a completely and utterly valid feeling to have, you know? You’re not supposed to want to go to the hospital, right? Like

Adam VanLuvanee
36:02 – 36:23
Yeah. And one of my favorite things, well it sounds weird, favorite, but you know, I’ll take it for what it is in the experience that um I really kind of love being like the the cushion that absorbs people’s feelings. You know, I don’t take them on, but like, that sounded a little wonky, but you know, stick with me for a minute. Um

Adam VanLuvanee
36:23 – 36:52
If somebody is angry and they’re coming in with this thing and we’re having that kind of talk, like, “I think you need to go,” I’m really happy to be able to be the one that holds the space for that feeling, you know, rather than it have to be somebody who doesn’t have the capability for that right now or maybe has less capability for that. I know myself and I know how much I’m able to bear and I’m happy to have that conversation and say, “Look, be mad. You want to throw something at me? Do it. I dare you.” And then I’m going to hold this recommendation because it’s what you need right now, you know. So,

Adam VanLuvanee
36:52 – 37:00
All of these feelings are natural in this process, and all of us are ready to make space for them if they have to come into play.

Lauren Mudrock
37:00 – 37:15
Amazing. And that just is so, so safe. Like that is, that in of itself is so disarming and, um, if I were going through it, that’s that is the kind of person that I would want to be in the room with for that. So,

Adam VanLuvanee
37:19 – 37:23
Wow. That’s unexpected. That’s nice.

Lauren Mudrock
37:23 – 37:49
I might book a session with you. Um, okay. So, speaking of, like, we have these stories of people who are angry to be referred to the hospital and then coming back and thanking you. In terms of this grander scheme of what we’re talking about too, what are some success stories that you guys have seen? Um, Mike, with your 25 years of experience, I’m sure you’ve had some really cool ones.

Mike Smolenski
37:50 – 39:15
Yeah, I mean, it’s funny because nothing really, like in terms of like this particular thing, like sticks out, right? Because it’s like this individual collection of experiences and events, right? I think like the coolest thing for me is that So, it’s a tough question because it’s like, are you talking about like parents and their kids’ success stories or like my success stories? Um, I think what’s always great is you, like especially if you do something like that where it is hard for that person. And like I said, like there’s been I’ve been blessed and lucky enough where a person has come back and said this was really helpful. You know, or it’s six years later and I get a random text message like, “Hey, like you actually saved my life.” You know, and I, you know, when I really needed that at that time. Like that’s just I mean that never gets old. It’s such an honor and a privilege to do this job. And we don’t do it for those accolades. So again, they when you get them, you you try your best to like take, you know, not take them for granted and really just try to slow things down and acknowledge that. Like that’s really, really cool. You know what I mean? Um, and I love that. And that’s kind of like why we do what we do, right? But but I’ve seen, you know, I’ve seen all kinds of stuff like where, you know, people are just at spots where you’re just like, “Oh my god, like, you know, how are they going to do this?” And they do it.

Mike Smolenski
39:16 – 39:34
And I believe in the power of resiliency. I believe that that exists within each and every individual. And I usually use the biological explanation that we probably wouldn’t have lasted this long as human beings if we didn’t have the capacity emotionally to get through whatever it is that life throws at us.

Mike Smolenski
39:35 – 40:07
Whether you believe in God, Buddha, or nothing, whatever made us, I don’t think they made us as a cosmic joke, just to be like, “Let’s just see how much I can test these people before they completely self-destruct.” Like, we were built to be able to overcome just about anything. And I believe in the resiliency of the human spirit. Which is why, to me, it’s like we can get through anything. It might take a really, really long time, but we can do it. And I love that. And I have never lost that. You know.

Lauren Mudrock
40:08 – 40:27
I’m fired up now. That’s That whole I’m like Yes. Resilience is something I think we underestimate in ourselves and each other. And that’s a really amazing reminder. You guys are going to get through this. This difficult talk, this difficult time, you are going to get through this. Just

Adam VanLuvanee
40:28 – 41:49
Yeah. I mean, like right off of the end of what you said, all we really have is time, you know? So, it’s like when people say, “I don’t have time to do that,” uh, “I’m never going to get there, whatever.” Well, I mean, put your seatbelt on, sit. It’s a long car ride, you know? Like just keep going. And things do heal up. I mean, I feel really similar to what Mike is saying that I’ve seen over and over again situations of people that come in with like an extraordinary level of hopelessness and things that are seemingly insolvable to them. And then you get a text months later, years later, kind of thing, like, “Hey, update.” Just so you know. Like the the session I had right before this, I’m really I’m in the spirit today because this is good. But um, I a lot of the kids that I work with in IOP, several of them have moved on to work with me individually. And one that I’ve been seeing for 18 months or so today just like ended a relationship that has been deeply not good for her. And we did it together on Zoom and like messages were sent, blocks were done, all of the things happened in our 50 minutes. And it it was so powerful to watch that change from somebody who said, “I’m just going to ride this out for the rest of my life. This is what it is. It will never change.” to owning their life today, you know? So, It’s here, you know?

Lauren Mudrock
41:50 – 42:22
So that’s something I’ve never thought about doing is like doing an action like that in a therapy session. That is a really cool idea for I’m sure anybody listening that like you can just do that. Like you can have your therapist help you with a breakup in the moment, like and then like imagine like having that like empowerment. Like those empowering reminders while you’re going through it. Like this is gonna be okay, you’re gonna get through this. Good on you, that’s amazing. Good on her. Absolutely.

Lauren Mudrock
42:23 – 42:26
You’re guiding her, helping her, but it’s all her at the end of the day.

Adam VanLuvanee
42:26 – 42:39
Right, I sat and watched. I said, “Go for it! Yeah, do it!” And she did all the heavy lifting. It was great. I’m really proud. So, moments like that, I mean, success is present and it’s all-encompassing with this stuff, you know.

Lauren Mudrock
42:39 – 42:59
Yeah, and back to the conversation about talking with your teen about mental health, like that could very well be like relationships could very well have been the source of their troubles. And there’s like, yeah, so many influences like that. So, getting that person who might not be your parent, like their parent that, yeah.

Mike Smolenski
43:05 – 43:08
Love it! Love the enthusiasm. It’s good stuff. Yeah.

Lauren Mudrock
43:08 – 43:24
Okay, so let’s flip the script and the scenarios on the mental health conversation a bit. What are some things teens have opened up to you guys about that they actually wish their parents would do or say, but they would like never tell their parents, you know?

Mike Smolenski
43:26 – 44:24
I think the thing that, it’s it’s hopefully I’m not calling any parents out, but um, one of the things that they hate, I already covered this in the very beginning, is like, “What’s wrong?” Hate that question. And then, and this speaks to the lack of like I think understanding, there’s I I swear this has happened more than once. I still can’t believe it happens, but they’ll say things like, “If you would just stop being depressed,” or “Stop being anxious.” I mean, that is just I understand sort of the intent, but it’s just so invalidating for someone that’s going through any emotion to just try to tell them like to stop or to like push it to the side, right? And I think, you know, again, it’s funny because I have this uh, again, I’m kind of a smartass. As I observe life and as I get older, I feel like when we give advice to people, we don’t do this on purpose, but we tend to give advice that kind of makes us feel better.

Mike Smolenski
44:25 – 44:57
Because especially if you care about that person, like you don’t want to see them in pain, right? So you kind of want to get rid of that for yourself. I mean, them too obviously, but for yourself. So I I feel like that’s at the heart of what these mistakes that you’re you’re asking us about, Lauren, um, come from, right? Is I say something because it’s making me feel better in the moment, but it’s kind of hurting my kid or or that person that I’m trying to support. So that’s probably the easiest way to answer that question. You know what I mean?

Lauren Mudrock
44:57 – 45:06
And if they could have their dream scenario of like what they would want their parents to do instead, what do you think that that would be? Leave them alone, probably.

Adam VanLuvanee
45:05 – 45:07
Just leave them alone. That’s exactly it.

Adam VanLuvanee
45:08 – 45:48
Yeah. It’s from every I’ll ask that question to kids and they’ll say, “Well, tell them to just leave me alone.” And I’m like, “Well, you know, it really that doesn’t do anything, you know? That’s that’s a very immediate sedentary fix to something that doesn’t actually solve the long-term thing, you know? Um, I think like best case scenario is like the parents being able to approach, you know, if the kid isn’t willing to do it. And then really listening for like what the kid is saying and being able to discern, okay, I haven’t in I can go. I can proceed with this conversation versus not right now. This is not the time. We’ll come back to it later, you know? Space is the biggest healer with these situations, for sure.

Lauren Mudrock
45:48 – 46:18
Yeah, and that aspect that comes with it. I know when I was going through it as a teen, oh man, I wish I just wish I would have like my my parents would have been like, “You’re a good kid. Like you you got this,” and like some encouragement. A little encouragement goes such a long way for like all of us. My whole life is just like the way like I know I needed it so much growing up that like it’s just become a part of me and I just I can’t like I have to leave people better than I found them. And that like that spark of just like like I was a photographer before uh before my role here and

Lauren Mudrock
46:19 – 46:33
Everything was just so like, oh my god, amazing. And like, so genuine, like, “You look great. I love this. I love your smile.” And like, the spark it gets, like it gives people when when they just get that little little bit of encouragement, too. So parents, if you’re listening, just throw a

Lauren Mudrock
46:33 – 46:36
And out of out of out of you.

Adam VanLuvanee
46:37 – 46:59
You had a really important point too because I think especially when kids are going through it and parents are getting fearful themselves, they get really fixated on the what’s wrong versus giving them any kind of positive feedback on anything. Like, you went to school today and you haven’t been able to do that this week. That’s huge, you know? Like, you did your homework, you took a shower, you went and saw a friend, you did whatever. Like, acknowledge the positives versus all the deficits, you know.

Mike Smolenski
47:00 – 47:45
I want to add one piece to that too, and Lauren, you kind of mentioned this by accident that don’t don’t forget like where they are developmentally at this age, right? Like independence and autonomy is like they’re on that train, right? And last time I checked, you’re not supposed to step in front of the train. Um you’re supposed to just kind of maybe like go along the side of it or hop on it, right? So, like that’s where they are developmentally and remember that’s a good thing. Unless you have aspirations for like a 50-year-old living in your basement. You know what I mean? Like you want that kid to be able to be independent, to be autonomous, and to be able to exist in the world, right? So again, if you even accidentally foster a dependency on every time I struggle, like someone has to fix it for me,

Mike Smolenski
47:45 – 47:56
And I need to find that source externally every time. Again, like that kid, there’s no resiliency for that kid. There’s none. They’re basically back in an infancy stage at that point.

Lauren Mudrock
47:58 – 48:48
I heard a video on Instagram the other day that was talking about letting your kids fail, letting them make mistakes and just being that source of unconditional love for them and say, like, “I can’t solve this for you necessarily,” and you know, maybe things bigger scenarios like with mental health challenges. Like that is definitely like help them where you can, but like smaller challenges throughout the day. Like, “You left your books at home.” Like, “I can’t help you through this, but I love you and you’re going to get through this. How are you going to solve this?” And like giving them that empowerment to make the decision for themselves so that they do build resiliency and they do learn to rely on themselves and that they are going to be completely safe at the end of the day. And like it’s just a book at the end of the day.

Lauren Mudrock
48:48 – 48:55
Let’s like work on your, like I don’t know, your uh, your skills around just like problem solving and everything.

Adam VanLuvanee
48:55 – 49:02
Well said. Yeah. I think I saw the same video actually. It sounded really familiar.

Lauren Mudrock
49:06 – 49:41
Okay, so we kind of already touched on how parents can tell the difference between what is like what are statements that are like crisis statements versus like we should keep an eye on this kind of statements. Um, what are some other like in the terms of like teens being like just moody or knowing they’re struggling, like how can you kind of spot that? Like what kind of sign would you look out for in that? And we do have another podcast on this, so we’ll just keep it light, but um you can check that out after this if you’re listening. But um, we’d love to know your guys’ thoughts on that.

Adam VanLuvanee
49:42 – 50:49
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, teens are going to be moody. It’s part of the developmental period. Um, hormone dysregulation, brain development, all of that stuff. Like, there’s a lot of change. The classic puberty talk is a part of it. So, like, everyone’s going to have some moodiness. Um, but I think the stuff that will set things aside is when that that perceived moodiness becomes to a certain extreme or it starts impairing their daily functioning. So, when we start talking about daily functioning, we mean things like your kid is only sleeping or they’re not sleeping and they’re exhausted all the time. They can’t go to school or they’re falling asleep at school or they can’t do their work. They don’t want to see friends. They’re not eating or they’re eating so much that you’re kind of like, whoa, what’s happening? Or like, haven’t showered in a week, stopped brushing their teeth, um, you know, their appearance is falling off. Like, these are kind of things where it’s that is might when that might be when Whoa, had a mini stroke, sorry. Um, that might be when you would want to approach a conversation like that and say, “Hey, I I noticed you haven’t showered since last Sunday. Um, yeah, right? You know, like, in in coming at things from that angle.

Mike Smolenski
50:50 – 51:45
Really well said, and what he what Adam just said is about like the power of observation. Like we talked about earlier, right? Like, what are you noticing? Are you noticing the change? Functioning is the key. That’s like the keyword. So, I totally agree with that, Adam. But then let’s add to this too. Like, if you have a, you know, a kid, assuming you live with them their whole lives, right? I would say use what you know, right? So the greatest advantage we have with people is like if we know them, we have the power of information, right? So again, if you observe and something just feels completely out of the pocket for that kid, I’m not saying there’s something wrong, right? But it’s worth kind of exploring that a little bit, right? And again, that’s just through the power of observation and using what you already have. Right? Notice I didn’t say, like, well, it’s time to go to grad school for psychology now. And that’s how you’ll answer that question. We don’t need to do that. You know what I mean?

Lauren Mudrock
51:45 – 51:54
Fine that back into your your intro to this of just calling it out like, “Hey, I noticed this,” and observing and yeah.

Lauren Mudrock
51:56 – 52:03
For the final two questions. Um, first question is, what’s one question you wish I would have asked you?

Mike Smolenski
52:06 – 52:11
What’s the meaning of life? No, I’m kidding. Um

Lauren Mudrock
52:11 – 52:13
Are you ready to answer that? Are you prepared?

Adam VanLuvanee
52:14 – 52:22
That’s kind of why I like it, so. You know, I like I like when I get stumped on these things. I don’t shut up if you guys haven’t noticed, so I like when

Mike Smolenski
52:25 – 52:54
I don’t know. I mean, I do feel like you asked I’m not trying to, you know, escape this question. But I feel like we covered a lot of ground in terms of what we came to talk about today, right? Which is that communication and stuff like that. So, you know, I mean, the real answer to your question is there could be a hundred more questions, right? So I’m not really stuck on like one that I would say is going to like

Mike Smolenski
52:54 – 53:19
give you the answer or solve the problem that we’re talking about today, which is communicating, not just with your team, but just communication, right, in general. It’s the number one, it’s the number one cliché in therapy for a reason, right? Because it’s so important and forms the basis of like just about everything that we do. Right? So, I would love to lie to you and say like, if you ask this question, like

Mike Smolenski
53:20 – 53:32
The answers will reveal themselves. It doesn’t exist. You know what I mean? I think really what I would say is just keep asking the questions and don’t be afraid. You know? Alright, Socrates. Damn.

Adam VanLuvanee
53:38 – 54:11
I second Mike though on his deep philosophical standings here. I think that any question that you ask around this is an important one because, like we started, one of the first things that we said is this is taboo. People don’t talk about it. It’s uncomfortable and it gets awkward and people seize up, you know? So, any question is an important question because this is a topic that’s really getting broached for the first time in our our history, like very openly, you know? So, keep asking the questions. Be brave. Don’t stop. I think it’s great. Yeah.

Lauren Mudrock
54:13 – 54:24
Okay. And the very last thing is, what is a thought or a question or a perspective that you would like to challenge our listeners with today?

Mike Smolenski
54:26 – 55:13
I said this yesterday in a group, I say this a lot. If I were to simplify the problems that people run into in life, it comes down to what our focus is around control. Right? So, when we try to control or manipulate things that we can’t control, whether that be like another person, a situation, a reaction from somebody, you name it, we usually run into a host of problems because you keep hitting the same wall that you’re that everyone hits is that I can’t fix this, I can’t control this, right? So, I know I said this phrase but control the controllable’s, right? Focus on what you can control and you’ll probably live like I don’t want to say an easier life, but hopefully a lot less stressful of a life.

Adam VanLuvanee
55:14 – 56:18
I think I’m going to stick to my true hippie roots and I’m going to go for the idea of duality in a very present, gratitude-based kind of thing. That I think a lot of the basis of what people come at this stuff from, especially in modern mental health, is this elimination of the bad. Get rid of the stuff that doesn’t feel good, get rid of the stuff that is causing a problem. And a lot of the time it’s not about trying to get rid of things, but more so acknowledging that, like, in order for happiness, calm, gratitude, um, I don’t know, euphoria, whatever to exist, we have to have the opposite. You have to have sad, you have to have fear, you have to have angry, you know, for the other ones to even exist because how would we differentiate it otherwise? So when the focus shifts away from getting rid of this stuff, we can be really present with the parts of ourselves that feel scared or sad or angry, and we can learn to integrate them and even be grateful for them and the messages they give us, rather than try and shove them away all the time.

Lauren Mudrock
56:19 – 56:26
Amazing. Amazing because as you do that, you become so much safer for everybody else to do the same thing around you.

Lauren Mudrock
56:29 – 56:32
I love this conversation. I’m so happy.

Lauren Mudrock
56:33 – 56:43
I’m going to have to hop off now, but um, thank you both for for joining in. Again, this was Adam and Mike, um our team therapists here at Sonare. Thanks, guys.

Adam VanLuvanee
56:44 – 56:48
Thank you, Lauren and Adam. Yeah, thank you Mike and Lauren.